I Hate You
- 12
- 02
- 09
Calm down. I don’t hate you. I don’t even know you. Or maybe I do. But still. I don’t hate you. I don’t think I even know what it means to hate something. So. No. I don’t hate you. So. Yes. The title of this post was a bit of a cheap trick to provoke you into reading my prose. Did it work? Yes? Good. Don’t hate me.
Do you ever utter these words, I hate you? And if so, how often? In what context?
I promise I am headed somewhere with this.
Yesterday, I published a thoughtful little piece on my passion problem, on the collision of creative and personal passions in my current life. I talked about my difficult discussion with Husband about my perceived problem. I mentioned as an aside that Husband and I never fight. This is true. We don’t. And some of you are baffled by this. Some of you think this can’t possibly be true.
But it is true.
We never yell. We never swear. We never wield threats.
There are never slammed doors. There are never clenched fists. There are never tears.
There are no I hate yous.
I remember talking once with a friend. We had both just married our respective husbands and she said something to me about fighting right. She said, No matter how heated it gets, never mention the D word. Divorce! She said that she and her husband vowed never to talk about divorce when they were arguing. And this seemed like a good approach, but utterly alien. Because I couldn’t then (and can’t now) envision a fight where the D word would even come to mind. I can’t imagine needing to fashion battle rules with my betrothed.
Last night, Husband and I sat around a tiny cocktail table at a Preschool holiday party. In between bites, I said to him, “People don’t believe that we don’t fight, but we don’t, right?”
“No” he said and smiled. “We don’t, but I think it probably comes down to how different people define fighting. It probably means different things to different people.”
“You are totally right,” I said. “That would make for an interesting post. What it means to fight…”(Told you the line between blog and life is getting increasingly blurry.)
Genius. Maybe Husband and I do fight after all. We do discuss difficult things, impossible things. We do disagree. Each of us gets upset from time to time. It’s just that when we address things and we do, it is without fail in a civilized and decidedly non-aggressive manner. I am not sure one can call this fighting.
Sometimes, I worry a little that by not fighting, by not throwing down from time to time, by not channeling that soap opera melodrama we must have within us, we are missing something. Pulse. Passion. Fire. Sometimes, I worry that not fighting is tantamount to another passion problem.
But as quickly as those worries come, they scatter. At least about this. I have been in more tumultuous relationships. I have been in fights. I know how to fight. (I am quite feisty actually.) But now? I am married to a man whom I love. Yes, passionately. I am married to a man who knows how to communicate and listen. And, yes, now I sound sappy, but sappy is not illegal in New York State or in the blogosphere. I checked. I feel lucky that we have good conversations all the time, complicated ones, but that we do not fight in the quintessential sense of that word.
Do you fight with people in your life? How do you define fighting? Do you think it is possible to have a passionate relationship without fighting?
Everyone struggles and...
The line between fighting is presumably somewhere between ‘discussing like adults’ and ‘being stubborn bastards’. When we (I mean my wife and I) ‘fight’ it usually means a little bit of both – the humbling bit is recognising (if true) that you have been stubborn and selfish or perhaps you haven’t but forgiving and agreeing to differ is the only way forward. Blah blah blah I probably don’t know what I’m talking about.
They serve cocktails at preschool parties?? Wow, NY really is a different world! I need to move
My husband and I rarely fight either, and if we do its little squabbles, that we both each easily forgive. We need to consider ourselves lucky, we won the lottery that few win..the husband lottery. Winner, winner, chicken dinner!!
The only thing you are missing? Make-Up Sex.
Which is why my husband gets a little twinkle in his eye whenever I get riled up about something.
We fight, but not often. Not about big things. It’s more squabbling over minor annoyances, and I’ll always the initiater. He’s calm as a cucumber…hardly anything gets him bothered.
I used to (in my youth) think any disagreement was “fighting.” I don’t think that any more. But I am still careful not to say anything I’d really regret or, like your friend, use the D word. That’s damaging.
And cocktails at pre-school parties? Genius.
I have fighting rules – but they’re really only for me because I have a tendency to yell and my husband really doesn’t. I’ve decided, just in my head, that when I’m angry I won’t swear and I won’t threaten to leave or sleep on the couch or anything like that. I know it sounds like I’m a child but honestly, it took me years to get here, and I feel like an adult acknowledging what I need to do, not only to be a good partner but also to fight fair. And while my husband and I do fight, it’s rare, it’s fair, and we always work it out.
We’re not noisy fighters either. We’re more the cold-shoulder type. When we realize we’re not going to agree about something we avoid the subject as long as possible until one of us gives in or we reach some kind of compromise. That sounds unhealthy when I read back over it.
My husband is Mr. Avoidance. He’s been known to sleep for approx. 20 hours in order to avoid talking about something we were fighting about. I mostly clean when we’re fighting. I take my aggression out on the kitchen. It sparkles after a particularly bad cold-shoulder argument.
I grew up in a family that had fights. Not major disasters. But tempers were occasionally lost and voices were occasionally raised. Once I got married the game changed and my husband introduced me to a new brand of disagreement – the one in which topics are discussed, sentences are finished, and people take turns expressing their views.
That’s not to say these discussions aren’t heated. Many times they are. And sometimes there are tears (I tend to cry when I get really mad, despite a civilized exchange.) And sometimes they end unresolved. I guess I would call these fights. Which brings me to how I would define fighting – We disagree; we are frustrated and/or angry; we talk it through as best we can until we either come to some agreement or recognize that the discussion isn’t going anywhere and decide to table it for a while.
We don’t fight-fight either. I call them “discussions” at best and “disagreements” at worst. Sometimes we (me) raise our voices and sometimes there’s cursing (mine), but there are never threats, and words are not used with the express intent to wound. We actually had what I would consider our first “fight” in 2.5 years a couple of weeks ago: the only reason it felt bigger/more serious than usual was because we BOTH raised our voices and I actually found myself wondering (for about 3 seconds) if I could “live” like that. It was pretty brutal.
As for the H-word? It was stricken from my vocabulary when I was about 10: my mother forbade us kids from using it (because it was usually used against each other), so I have to feel VERY strongly to use it now. I use the F-word more easily than the H-word.
I was in a relationship where the fights sometimes ended in stomping up and down and not speaking to each other for days. Having now experienced a relationship where disappointments and misunderstandings are promptly and rationally talked through, I prefer the latter.
You kind of have to know me in order to understand my answer on this one. I grew up in an abusive situation, left home at 16 and lived on my own. Fast forward – the abuse in my life was ongoing until 7 almost 8 years ago.
So take a woman who has always felt she had to defend herself and keep her guard up and put her with a mild mannered/good guy and what do you get. Chaos.
I was quick tempered and angry at the slightest inclination of a disagreement. I loved Paul, I just honestly didn’t know any other way to be. Slowly but surely, I learned to agree to disagree, never go to bed angry and most of all realize the words that disengorge from your mouth in anger can’t be undone.
Now that I’m deaf arguing is a whole new can of worms. I simply walk away and since I can’t hear, his side of the argument falls on deaf ears. I’m getting better at listening and letting him vent though.
As for Passion, unfortunately I have a whole lifetime of ugliness to swim through for whatever I need in my books. At least it has some use. (Hugs)Indigo
as usual, well done, my friend. my wife and i seem to have a relationship similar to the one that you and Husband share.
okay, that’s bullshit. i must admit that from time to time we do have our moments of drama, not frequently, not frantically, but periods of drama nonetheless. hmm. wonder what changed us.
oh, that’s right.
say, if you’d like to dip your toe back in the waters of tumult, my wife and i would be happy to drop ship our triplets to manhattan. let me know when you’ll be home all day. i think you’d have to sign for them. jco
I think I would define a fight as a disagreement where there is no resolution and at least one side feels angry when the “fight” is over. I have not been in many (maybe 1?) real relationship, where fighting would even be applicable, so I don’t speak from a frame of reference.
My parents didn’t fight in front of us, if they fought at all. I really haven’t even ever see my parents disagree to the point where it was even an issue.
Now me, I tend to hold a grudge, I am not good at talking out my feelings, what I am mad about or what I want my resolution to be. I think this is partly because I have not yet been in a relationship that has been meaningful enough or long enough for my fighting style to be an issue. I do tend to raise my voice and say hurtful things. Clearly a characteristic of mine that is not pleasant. I have been working on these things for a while in my friendships favorably, so I anticipate that when the right person comes along, I can work through my “fight” style with them as well.
I was brought up in a family that never raised its voice, never argued. I didn’t know how to fight. I thought if I did it was “abnormal”.
Recently there have been challenging times in my life and I’ve had to learn to have discussions. It’s funny that at my age I have to learn these things, but I guess that shows you you are never too old to learn anything.
My boyfriend and I don’t really fight either. We’re lucky to be able to communicate openly and honestly, so we discuss our disagreements before they become actual fights. (For me, bringing something up and calmly discussing it, instead of being passive-aggressive, is a pretty huge victory.)
I think, in my case, it’s directly related to the fact that growing up, I *never* saw my parents fight. Ever. I never even saw them get upset with each other or anything. If they had problems, they successfully worked them out away from me and my brothers. And even though this is my first “real” relationship, it’s been remarkably easy to follow their example (having an amazing boyfriend helps, of course).
What you describe…the heated discussions, in which you disagree, discuss and come to some sort of conclusion, be it an agreement to disagree or a plan to tackle whatever problem. That is what my husband and I describe as fighting. Because otherwise we don’t. There is rarely a melodramatic moment between us, mostly because we trust eachother. Trust. That’s the key. And with that in place I don’t worry about our relationship.
Thanks for bringing it up!
I grew up in a house where fights were very loud, escalated quickly into both people yelling until doors at opposite ends of the house were slammed, and then yelling a bit more through those doors. As much as it happened and it became the norm, I was never able to fully get used to it or relax while one of these fights were going on.
My ex and I fought bitterly and very dramatically – complete with name calling and screaming and crying. And the make up sex? Not worth it (nor was the regular).
My boyfriend and I now never have these kind of dramatic fights. Any disagreements are settled through conversation. If I feel myself getting really worked up I’m simply quiet for a moment while I gather myself. Sometimes I end up in tears if something is really bothering me, but that comes from me, not from what Dizzle says. He takes care to talk calmly and quiety. If his voice is at all raised, I know that he’s really upset about something and it’s my turn to say something calming. Can you tell I was a communications major?
Of course, we’re only a year into the relationship, but it gives me hope that we will not turn out to be like my parents!
Polite people simply do not fight. Why not leave such comic outbursts to the Rosie O’donnells and Donald Trumps of the world.
I think it absolutely depends on your definition of fighting. Someone can never raise their voice or utter a cuss word, and still be incredibly hurtful to another person. (I’m not at all saying that’s your case…I’ve just known couples like that.) My husband and I fight sometimes. And when I say “fight”, I mean that we disagree, we sometimes find it hard to reach common ground, and we have difficult conversations in which I sometimes cry, or he feels frustrated. And I find it very healthy. We never call each other names, we never issue threats, and no matter how heated the conversation, I know our marriage is strong enough to take it. Disagreement begets growth, and the ability to see different points of view. When people lash out without meaningful discussion…or with the intention to hurt someone…that’s when it becomes a problem in my book. On the other end of the spectrum, avoidance of fighting (because of a doubt you can move beyond it) is (in my view) problematic as well. As long as you’re BOTH talking and BOTH listening, I think “fighting” (or discussing…whatever you want to call it) can be productive.
On a related note, I hate the saying, “Never go to bed angry.” I think it’s a load of hooey. Sometimes sleep is the best way to begin again, and find that common ground.
so it is safe to assume you don’t have teens in the house?
not many fights at my house, although I did get called a “son-of-a-Richmond” once (dad’s name) lol
I strongly dislike the ‘H-Word’. I use it only very rarely. And when I use it, I *mean* it. Words are so powerful and I always try to be conscious of the ones I choose. Of course, that usually only occurs only 75% of the time — I wish it could be more.
In your case I don’t equate not ‘fighting’ with lack of passion. I think you are extremely passionate. I think maybe because you grew up with many sisters you learned early on how to negotiate, use words and pick your battles. And certainly your law school experience helped you to be rational and articulate when expressing your opinions, feelings, qualms, etc.
In my opinion, slammed doors and clenched fists are something everyone should experience in a relationship. I know I have. But that is *not* the kind of marriage I want.
My dad was a lawyer and he and my mom *never* fought. My mom is a lot like me — we’re like volcanos — we keep a lot of resentment in and then we verbally explode. But my dad was always calm and rational and never lost his temper. I respect that so much.
The only raised voice in our house comes from the angry little throat of our pre-teen… the same for arguments, fights and unkind words.
I save all my kindness and goodness for people I cherish- namely family and friends. That pretty much precludes unpleasantness, fighting, cold shoulders, sarcasm, deprecation and unforgiving silence.
Had quite enough of all that noise in a previous life, and hope that someday my daughter will follow in the same footsteps.
I’m sure people are all over the map on this as different people have such different comfort levels with anger as part of their relationship.
For me, I often say that you can punish most people by believing what they say. I try not to say things that would serve that purpose.
I’m sort of realizing that I don’t want to live my life with a steady state of anxiety or anger that has become my baseline. I realized this after a particularly difficult break up and the next day, I woke up and my first thought was, “Ohhhh, so this is how it feels to wake up and not be upset and anxious.”
So, I’m with you – not fighting is A-OK and not necessarily any kind of reflection on the level of passion or love two people have with each other.
But what the hell do I know? I’ve also vowed to marry the first woman to throw a plate at me.
-R.
My husband and I do not argue often but because we both argue for a living (we are both litigators) when we do fight, we probably have the most annoying fights ever. We can’t help but try to parse each others positions apart, which annoys each of us that the other is using lawyer tricks even while we use our own litigator’s arsenal on the other! I think passion comes in all forms, and definitely don’t think fighting equals passion. For us, when the fights do happen, it is more about individual frustrations or stress than our relationship, thankfully.
I have such a warped idea of what “fighting” is I don’t think I can answer the question. I grew up in a dysfunctional household so I have a skewed frame of reference. But I like your husband’s comment that everyone defines it differently. I remember, a few months into my marriage, I was telling my sister that things weren’t good, that we were “fighting” all the time. She asked me to explain. I did. And when I was finished, she gently laughed and said, “Jane, that’s not fighting. That’s a relationship.” It really helped me to put things in perspective.
I love discussions where I can use my degree. I spent 4 freaking (yet wonderful) years learning about marriage, I should have something to contribute!
John Gottman identified 5 marriage types: Validating, volatile, avoidant, hostile-engaged, and hostile-detached. Of these 5, the first three were least likely to lead to a divorce (stable) and the last two are most likely to lead to a divorce (unstable).
Validating couples “take turns” in disagreements. Volatile couples have passionate encounters. Avoidant couples, you guessed it, avoid marital conflict. Each of these types have more positive interactions than negative. Arguments are productive and avoid criticism, contempt, and stonewalling.
The unstable types are characterized by high amounts of hostile interactions. Criticism, contempt, and stonewalling are often used tools during arguments. Arguments turn into fiascoes, without any productivity.
The point of this summary is to explain “fights.” We each have different marriage types, so we all “fight” differently. The thing couples should avoid is hurtful statements like “I hate you.” That is like punching someone in the stomach. Emotionally.
In answer to your question, my husband and I do fight. We are volatile. We do not yell, but we get very passionate. Heck, that’s why our sex life is amazing : ).
Thanks for letting me use my degree. Even if I did take up lots of comment “space.”
P.S. Here is a link describing the marriage types http://family.jrank.org/pages/1113/Marital-Typologies-Using-Scientific-Methods-Create-Typologies.html
I’ve never fought in a relationship before I met my husband. We have heated, honest arguments. It’s the first time I feel safe and comfortable fully expressing myself. “Lucky me!” says my guy.
My ex and I fought all the time. We fought about everything. We should have realized that we both grew up so differently that it would take time to come together on things. When I say fight, I don’t mean yelling and screaming – although there were those moments. I mean heated discussions.
I have cooled down quite a bit with age. I am amazed when friends and I disagree how easy I find it to let it go.
My husband and I never fought either. Part of the reason was that it’s hard to fight if the other person refuses to engage. When I had an issue with him, if I brought it up, he would just stare at me until I stopped talking. Didn’t matter how upset I got, he’d just look at me silently. Finally I did bring up the D word. “Not fighting” is not the holy grail of marriage. If I ever have another relationship (not likely, actually, I’m so burned by my marriage), I will seek out quickly that person’s fighting style.
I have been on both sides. I don’t think that anyone could ever describe me in terms that didn’t include passionate, feisty and opinionated. Once upon a time I had a relationship that was among the most passionate and deepest that I had ever been in. We didn’t fight often, but when we did it was white hot.
We would yell and scream, but the words weren’t nasty. They were just sort of raw emotion that would burst out of us. Neither of us could stay angry with the other.
The fight was like a storm that would pass through. It would materialize and the rain would pound down and then it would be gone. Two people would be in perfect sync and all would be well with the world.