Heart to Heart. Head to Head. Screen to Screen.
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I mentioned in yesterday’s post that Husband and I had a really intense and good conversation while stranded in our South Carolina suite on Tuesday night. And we did. We talked about big things, hard things, things that are difficult to articulate. Don’t worry. It wasn’t a fight. In the event you are new here, Husband and I don’t fight. We discuss. We debate. We dance.
But maybe not enough.
As we lay there, side by side, heads on hotel pillows, hearts pried open, talking and talking to the point of exquisite exhaustion and understanding, it occurred to me, to both of us actually, that life has gotten in the way of these meaty and meaningful exchanges. It’s not that we don’t communicate. We do. All the time. We talk on the phone several times a day and every evening after the girls are in bed. It’s not as if we don’t have big, layered things to talk about. We do. It’s not as if our conversations are lacking. They are rich and wonderful and complicated and real.
That is, when we have them.
But something has gotten in the way. Or maybe it’s that everything has gotten in the way. The kids. The careers. The renovation of home and life. The utter lack of time to pause and ponder together. The exhaustion that rises like steam from a good and busy life. The clutter of happy hearts and happy heads.
On Tuesday, we talked about this. This not-talking-enough-really-talking-enough thing. This current scarcity of Heart to Hearts. And Head to Heads. And Husband said it well. He said that we should do this more, talk like this more, but that talking like this, discussing so deeply, all the time would be exhausting and no fun. He is right. It would be draining to pick apart our thoughts and hopes and judgments too frequently.
But how much of this is enough?
What is the right amount of time spent with the person you love talking about the difficult and the divine, the big things that transcend the details of our days? How many moments should we cordon off to excavate existential soil side by side? And do these moments lose their magic if they are forced, plotted or planned?
I don’t know.
But I do know that this man and I don’t just make beautiful babies (I’m bragging. Sue me. They are.) We make compelling conversation. Conversation that has shaped me and has sustained me. Conversation that has buoyed us along with attraction and laughter and old school love all of these years. Conversation that is an essential, if jagged, piece of the puzzle that is us. And so, for me, this question matters and hugely.
How do we sustain real currents of conversation amid the reality of life?
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How often do you enjoy deep conversations with the people you love? Do you agree that these conversations are often crowded out by the stuff of real life? If these conversations aren’t happening with tremendous regularity, is that evidence of faulty priorities? Do we humans have limited conversational capacities? If, say, someone is spending large chunks of her day conversing with virtureal strangers, is she possibly depleting conversational energy that should be expended elsewhere? Does the Screen to Screen interfere with the Heart to Heart and Head to Head or enhance it?
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*Please click over and read this post by my friend Lindsey of A Design So Vast. In this exquisite piece on her torturous experience with Postpartum Depression after the birth of her first child, Lindsey bravely spills head and heart onto the screen.
Thank you for your immensely kind and generous characterization of my post – it was surprisingly hard for me to share, given how open I am about my experience.
I think it’s hard to sustain the deep and nourishing conversations, but I also think that having them all the time would be bad too. There is a balance, I think. Maybe they will find us when we really need them, these moments of connection, as they arrived for you, surprising but necessary, that night in South Carolina?
It makes perfect sense that sharing that piece of you was hard, but I am so glad you did. Through your words, you cracked open an important window.
The idea that the deep and nourishing conversations find us, and happen when they need to, is compelling to me. I wonder if it is up to us, in some elusive way, to let these exchanges find us and materialize? Do we need to stay open to them or will they track us down no matter what?
I’ve found, in the past 20-30 years of my adult life, that it ebbs and flows. When my kids were tiny I craved more meaningful conversation, probably because of the massive changes going on in my life. Now, as the kids are going away to college and life is moving on, I’m finding that I need it once more again. I also think that women need this, in general, more than men, and thus are usually the initiators. Unless they’re going thru some career thing. But that’s just my opinion.
You highlight an interesting nuance to this conversation about conversations, namely that our need and desire for this species of discussion changes depending on the landscape of our current lives. Maybe when our kids are tiny, we crave it because a) we are exploring the endlessly new territory of parenthood; and b) so much of our days are spent conversing with kids. I also think this question of whether men and women have different conversational needs is fascinating. Is it that we have essentially different needs or different levels of awareness of these needs? Do these idiosyncrasies really run along gender lines or differ based simply on the individual?
Deep conversations are always lovely. But you’re right, if overdone than they lose their intimate value.
On the lighter side, you can check out the Love Listography book (by my friend Ms. Nola). It has sweet little prompts that I find evoke intense convos w/my beau (sometimes!)
What is the right amount? What is overdone? Do some people have these conversations all the time? Do some never enjoy these exchanges? Do we all need and want different levels of existential soil tilling based on how we were raised, how we were schooled, how we see the world?
I will certainly check out the book. Thanks for the recommendation!
I wonder about that all the time!! I crave compelling conversation, and I wonder whether some people just don’t need (or get the opportunity to have) that kind of exchange. And then I think, who am I to define it as a certain type of exchange or not? What might count as a heart-to-heart for me might be nothing for someone else. I feel like it’s nearly impossible to ever define or fully describe a conversation & the ways in which it shapes you or sustains you (I love that line, btw!). It’s almost as though what makes a certain conversation soul-satisfying is the fact that the very conversation (and what it does to your heart & head) defies description entirely.
AND, on a completely different note, reading posts like this gives me hope that maybe I will one day find a man who loves to wonder about stuff as much as I do.
The right amount is….whatever makes the both of you happy? I really like your point of “Do we all need and want different levels of existential soil tilling”. It really sums up how I feel/think a lot of times. Thanks for putting my thoughts into more appropriate words
Funny, this piece. Not “ha-ha” funny, “huh” funny. We’ve been going through this sort of query, too, lately. We talk, but of late it’s a talk of avoidance, a filling the air kind of talk, when we have real things weighing on us. I hate that. I prefer to air the laundry, get it out, deal with it and Evan prefers to wait for it to go away.
I think real, heartfelt talking is vital to a relationship. You understand each other and yourself through it, you keep small things from becoming big and big things from exploding all over the newly painted walls. And it feels good. Like good sex, it brings you closer and leaves you feeling like you can take on anything together. The rub, as you noted in your response to Mika, is when one person’s idea of a rich and fulfilling conversation is the very thing that makes her mate slip under the bed.
Talk of avoidance. Interesting concept. In my estimation, this is probably something all of us engage in to some degree. I have noticed sometimes that when I don’t want to talk about me, or some issue I am having, I talk about other people, their issues, their angst. This could be what underpins our culture’s obsession with celebrities. Perhaps by obsessing over the lives of famous people, we are ducking the issues in our own? (Tangent? Perhaps. But I love tangents!)
Oh, yes, who can resist a tangent?! (Certainly not either of us! I love it!)
See, now, how’s THAT for meaningful talk…?
Tim and I have deep heart to hearts quite infrequently actually. When we’re out to dinner, just the two of us, sometimes we find ourselves deep in conversation about the big and important but sometimes it’s easier just to chat because we don’t get to do that much either. When we’re away on vacation, just the two of us, we always find time to ponder, delve deep and find passionate things to talk about. But again, not always.
Life with kids certainly gets in the way of these types of talks. With so little time to even LOOK at each other, we have to pick and choose what is important to do with one another. Lie still and quiet together Watch trashy TV for a good laugh? Chat about friends? Discuss finances? Or have deep, meaningful talks.
I don’t think there’s a “right” amount of time to spend on the deep stuff. It’s what comes naturally. What you need at the moment. What keeps you together and in tune with one another.
Very interesting post Aidan!
There is no right amount. I know this. There never is. But what is a good amount? Does it differ depending on the person and the couple and the situation? I agree that we must allow these things to transpire organically, but what if they just don’t? What if we fashion lives for ourselves that are so chock full of responsibilities and practical details that there literally no cracks through which deep discussion can spill? Is this possible or will these ideas and these conversations make way when necessary? And what happens when they are put off? Do the ideas morph? Do they disappear? Do innocuous questions at some point become problematic issues?
I don’t think Ryan and I have these kinds of conversations nearly enough. In fact, Ryan was commenting on it last night (in a way I wasn’t taking well); of course, now that I reflect on it, I don’t know that our definitions of “meaningful conversation” are entirely compatable. So I don’t really have much to add, except to say that I’m jealous that you and Husband don’t argue, and thanks for making me reconsider something I didn’t really want to think about. Ryan and I should really get back to that discussion. Ugh.
What to do if our definitions of meaningful conversation are so divergent that there is little common ground? I wonder whether over the years two people with disparate views begin to merge, to find that common ground, or whether the starkness of the contrast of the outset makes these worldviews diverge even more over time? Is having a conversation about the definition of meaningful conversation itself a meaningful conversation? So many questions…
My husband and I have these sort of discussions mostly over a date night dinner. I find our best discussions are while driving together in the car. I find them invigorating. I miss them when we don’t have them often enough. With our hectic schedules we’ve yet to have them too often.
I also meet with some friends every week for a study group that leads to hefty conversations. I need deep conversations with other mothers, too.
I have personally found that blogs give me great ideas to think about and often LEAD to better conversations with my husband and friends because I (or they) want to explore the ideas the posts brought to our mind.
I agree that meaningful conversations are not fungible. A hearty conversation with a spouse is not the same as a hearty conversation with a family member or good friend. Each of these might very well serve different purposes and satisfy different cravings. I also think that there is something very stimulating and educational about reading blogs, about tuning into the conversations of others and I think that doing so can enhance the exchanges we have in our “real” lives.
I think this how the cliched date night came about. We need breathers. We need time where we are taken outside of our current demands and day-to-day responsibilities. Just as creativity needs room and time and good food to breathe and grow, relationships need it too. Of course, the problem is that when those times becomes overly scheduled and become a chore, we are sort of back at square one, but being aware and making room for it is definitely the first step.
Date night is one cliche I love. I actually have a thing for cliches, but now is not the time… Husband and I often have some of our best conversations on our nights out when we are in a darkened restaurant sharing yummy food and looking at each other. This makes sense. But I also like the nights when we go out and talk about little things – our days, interesting things we have read, etc. The good life? I think it is all about finding the right balance of big and little. Easier said than done? Absolutely.
I think it probably depends on the life-partners. I enjoy words (no surprises, there) in every form- and love a good conversation wherever I find it. Sometimes topics must be broached that are more like an ocean trough than a rippling stream; this is hard. I have to take intensity in stages, a bit a time.
I am married to the only man I’ve ever known who could tolerate the sheer volume of ocean swell that roils my seas. And I’ve learned to temper the tempest with humor and laughter and shared adventures.
Life’s a dance, sometimes a waltz, sometimes a Mexican hat dance. You gotta roll with it.
“Life’s a dance, sometimes a waltz, sometimes a Mexican hat dance. You gotta roll with it.” I am a fan of metaphors. They are another one of my obsessions. And this is a good one. I guess I wonder whether some of us are better dancers than others? Whether there is truly an objective measure of dancing and living? Is there one jig to which we should all aspire or should we all choreograph our own existences without reference to our fellow dancers?
My husband and I had these conversations all the time at the beginning of our relationship. That was something I missed in my last relationship and that I deeply fell for when I met my husband.
However, life does get in the way. We don’t have those kind of conversations nearly enough anymore (and we don’t even have kids yet!) and it makes me sad. Then again, there are so many things going on in our lives right now (things I can’t go into in a comment, but believe me, things that just take the energy away for everything) and I can only hope that those deep conversations return one day.
I don’t think you can plan or force them – they just have to happen.
It seems that conversations ebb and flow over time and that perhaps we should be tolerant of this. I guess I wonder whether we should let the currents of conversations flow naturally, or whether we should intervene when we crave more and need more? How much control should we seek over these things? How much should we get out of life’s way?
Meaningful conversation? I’ve almost forgotten how to have one. With my husband – they’re rare anymore (that is if you mean by “meaningful” it goes beyond behavior/health of the kids or finances). Our conversations are important – but I wouldn’t characterize them as meaningful. And that’s so sad. The seem to be far and few since children. You’re making me want them back desperately.
Your comment reminds me of the time leading up to my wedding. It seemed that every time Husband and I had a conversation it was about table linens or guest lists. The topic of the wedding was so all-consuming that we rarely talked about other things. Maybe this is what happens when kids enter the equation or when the logistics of life get more and more complicated. Maybe there is just so much that we have to talk about that there is little time for the more lofty (and lovely) topics?
Interesting post, Aidan. My wife and I have been together for 16 lovely years, and we NEVER fight. Never. We’ve had arguments, but never of the mean-nasty-personal variety. Life is far too short to spend it angry at the person you love most in life (and who loves YOU most).
Like you, we have deep, insightful conversations about what’s really important to us. I honestly think it helps to be married to your best friend. When I was younger, I never bought the concept of a soulmate. I do now.
Do we marry our best friends or do our spouses *become* our best friends? Do we find soul mates or do we create them? Now, that would make for a meaningful conversation. Might have to ask these questions in a future post. Thanks for planting the seeds
I think deep conversations only happen spontaneously, they can’t be planned. Just embrace them when they happen. I find that my husband and I have the vast majority of our deep conversations when we are at a point of tension – and then we probably have too many – but at times when our views are in harmony we have them less. These days we don’t have many and that is okay with me, it is a sign that things are going well in our little corner of the world
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I wonder whether for most of us deep conversations are rooted in tension or whether tension results from a lack of deep conversations? Maybe there is a cycle here. My guess is that all of us engage in these more weighty exchanges for different reasons; some of us to feel closer, some of us to address conflict. So interesting to me that for some couples a lack of deeper conversation is a sign of health and for others this lack is a sign of discord.
What wonderful questions. If I had advice, I’d give it but my husband and I are in the throes of the same thing: life.
We, like you, produce beautiful babies and conversations. Unfortunately, things have been put on hold.
What I have found is that those sparse heart-to-hearts (that you mention) help both of us work harder for a week or so. Then we have another heart-to-heart. But, can these infrequent heart-to-hearts sustain our need to converse? Sometimes no and sometimes yes. Parenting is busy. Life is busy. I would love to say make time for this! But, I know better. It is easier said than done.
Perhaps this explains love. The kind of love that endures. Despite how much life gets in the way, that love continues to foster. I know that I get frustrated with the lack of time I have with my husband. I also know that he still loves me, and I love him. Even though our conversations lack, our communication is still open via the written word. I write e-mails, he responds. We chat on google. Those things help us make it until we can have longer periods of chatting.
You raise an important, if overlooked, distinction between communication and conversation. I think many of us subsist on the former because this is what life allows. Communication can come in diverse forms, but it keeps us tethered to those we love even if they aren’t always physically present. I guess the trick is not to let communication and chatter wholly replace deep, engrossing conversation. Easier said than done? For sure.
We tuck huge conversations into the seam of our lives. Pin-tucking them into dinner prep, brushing and flossing our kids’ teeth, weeding the backyard. We learned that we had to or else later regret something bigger: not talking enough.
Absolutely. We stuff conversation and questions and meaning into the nooks and crannies of busy lives. It is in these tiny corners, in the in-between, that honesty and happiness grow. I love the idea that we do not have to set aside large chunks of time to sit down and discuss, that big conversations can happen over time, in bits and pieces, in the mix of life. And Regret? She will always find us, but maybe we can minimize her shadow?
The conversation isn’t just about deep, insightful, philosophical issues. It can be a soft embrace or a deep kiss. A look in the eye. A laugh so hard, your sides hurts.
The conversation sometimes becomes about practical things. “What day are we scheduled to meet with litttle Johnny’s teacher?” “Can you pick up Suzie Q from ballet?” I hate those conversations.
Nothing beats the spontaneity of a night alone, a bed, a pillow and someone who is there to spend their life with you.
Thanks for coming by ILI and for leaving this thoughtful comment. I also detest conversations that hinge on logistics. They are necessary, but no fun. I appreciate this reminder that there are many species of conversation. There are and I think this is what makes life so compelling. Our South Carolina pillow talk was so meaningful. In part because of its vastness. In part because of what it symbolized – the side-by-side surrender and stumbling, the intimacy of imagining, the continued commitment.
My husband reads my blog…. does that count?
(We do also talk, in case you’re worried!)
Yes, I think that counts for something! Husband reads my blog too and it means a lot. And we often have great conversations that are started by my blog posts. This is another interesting avenue to explore, namely the ways in which blogging affects the currents of conversation in our respective lives…