Where’s My Boy Friend?
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A few weeks ago, Husband and I were chatting with Toddler’s teacher at a school event and she said something wonderful. She said that Toddler is equally drawn to the girls and boys in her class. She is friends with girls and friends with boys. She doesn’t discriminate. At age three, it seems this is the way it should be.
But what about at age thirty-one?
Because I do not have a single stand alone friend that is a boy at this point. Sure, I consider my friends’ husbands to be friends, but there is no guy, not one, whom I would call up and say hey. There is no guy, not one, whom I would track down for a quick lunch or a quick drink.
Truth be told, I am not the best case study. For whatever reason, I have never had a collection of boy friends. I’m not really sure why. It could be that as one of five sisters, I was always most comfortable hanging with girls. It could be that, deep down, I believed that platonic relationships between guys and girls were tricky and usually ended up being charged with romantic and sexual complications. This did happen to me at least once and maybe I just learned my lesson.
But I look around and I see a pattern. Take Husband. Once upon a time, he had a bevy of girl friends. Many of his closest buddies were members of the opposite sex. And now? He is Facebook friends with most, but that is the extent of it. Take the majority of my married – and mommy – friends. I have not taken an official poll, but it seems to me that boy friends have fallen off, have been relegated to the fringes of busy lives, or have been deleted from those busy lives all together.
And maybe that is what it is all about. Being busy. Maybe it is that this juggling act called Life is hard work. That between professional and parental and personal obligations, we feel stretched to the max. That there is no free time in which to phone up our less central buddies – whether they are girls or boys. Maybe the explanation for this sociological shift boils down to the practicalities and pulls of modern existence.
Or maybe there is something more. Once upon a time, things were less serious. There were not marriages to wreck and kids to screw up. Maybe the number of opposite sex friendships wanes – as a social or biological means – to protect monogamy? Maybe eliminating these relationships is a logical way to minimize distraction and competition and is simply part and parcel of commitment?
I don’t know. I don’t pretend to know. I’m guessing here. But when there are no answers, guessing is good.
Anyway, this all strikes me as weird. And as unfortunate. That at age three, the world is our classroom and our classroom is our world. That we are encouraged to play with boys and girls. But that time slips by, that life grows gray, and we retreat to our own side of the classroom. This seems a shame.
Part of me longs for that boy friend I never quite had. A benevolent fellow to offer a different view. A buddy to blue up my pink days. Part of me thinks I would be a more well-rounded person and a more nuanced writer if I had greater access to the male perspective.
So I need a boy friend. Or a handful. That would be cool.
(And of course I have one boyfriend. The one-word breed. A best friend. Husband. And I wouldn’t trade him for the world. But husbands don’t count here. Why? Because I say so.)
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Do you have friends of the opposite sex (or attractive sex, to be more politically correct)? Did you used to have more boy friends or girl friends? Does adulthood or marriage or parenthood kill these relationships? Is there just no time to nurture these peripheral connections or is there a more complicated explanation at play here? Does this come down to (an unspoken or spoken) jealousy between spouses? Ultimately, is keeping these relationships to a minimum a way to safeguard a marriage or a family?
i strongly believe (and i’m totally willing to discuss this with those who feel otherwise) that heterosexual men and women are not capable of having a true platonic friendship without sexual chemistry entering the picture at some point in time. it doesn’t necessarily have to come from both parties, but (again, my opinion only) sexual tension will exist for one towards the other, if not both.
in other words, the term “just friends” (to me) is a false one when applied to heterosexual men and women. i just don’t believe it is possible.
class dismissed.
Oh Nic. Now, you couldn’t go there and not expect me to jump in and disagree.
I have many men that I’m friends with, that I’ll go out for a coffee or lunch with once in a while, that I’ll chat with on facebook if that’s all time permits.
I think part of the reason I do have that is I have a husband who’s not the least bit jealous or threatened by these friendships.
As far as sexual chemistry, I will allow that several of these men are people I’ve had relationships with in the past. But not all of them.
But I’ve always been someone who somewhat gravitates towards friendships with men rather than women.
and this is why i ADORE conversing with you, my amazing friend.
And this is why I ADORE blogging. I wrote this post this morning after chatting with Husband. He and I agreed it was an interesting question, a universal conundrum. Who knew it would trigger such thoughtful conversation? Such a revealing clash of opinions? Love it!
I’m like you, Aidan – I don’t really have any boy friends. Practically all women, except for the husbands and boyfriends of my girl friends. I guess I don’t over-think this, but you raise some interesting questions.
My husband does a much better job of mixing. He has always been friends with both boys and girls. When we first started dating this worried me, but it quickly became evident that he is able to treat his girl friends differently than girlfriends. Very interesting.
I’m afraid I agree with the above comment. Someone always feels something more, even just more of an attraction. I’ve never been one of those women with tons of guy friends. I have some; they’re generally attached to the women in my life and I am very careful about that.
Frankly, I’m always a little suspicious of women who say they make friends with guys so much more easily than with women. I think they like the affirmation they get from these relationships.
Not that we have to act on every attraction we feel, obviously. But to deny it’s there can be dangerous in the long run.
My younger daughter, 15, has a lot of male friends. She is killer pretty and I have no doubt most of these “friends” would prefer it otherwise.
And maybe that’s why I don’t have many women friends. I find a lot of women are ’suspicious’ of my relationships with my male friends. Like there HAS to be something more to it. Honestly… there’s not. And that’s part of the simplicity of it.
I think part of the reason I have more male friends is it’s been my experience that friendships with women are WAY more effort. There’s more drama. And they always seem to want to compete on some level.
No thanks.
My friendships with guys are straight up, drama free, camaraderie, with no expectations. If we don’t get together for a few months? Who cares. It’s not the end of the world. I’m having coffee with another guy? Who cares. It’s not the end of the world.
It’s been my experience that the same doesn’t hold true with my friendships with women.
As far as your daughter, is it possible she gravitates towards friendship with guys (who at that age, yes, probably would love something more), because she gets tired of the cattiness of other girls who are put out by the fact she’s prettier than they are and feel the need to bring her down? I would lay money on the fact there’s an element of that.
Interesting discussion.
I am with Jenn on this. I have always had more guy friends than girl friends. I gravitated towards them and related better to them. That hasn’t really changed much.
I have guy friends now – some I’ve know almost my entire life that (if distance permitted) I would have coffee or lunch with without a second thought.
Also like Jenn, my hubs it pretty laid back about it. He doesn’t get jealous or suspicious. He knows where I stand.
I cherish my guy friends… they provide me a different perspective on life.
Sarah – Thanks for popping by ILI and for chiming in here! It is so fascinating to me that some of us gravitate towards friendships with guys and some of us just don’t. I find it both interesting and problematic that these friendships are harder to maintain into adulthood. Ultimately, I think there are so many factors at play and I do think that open-mindedness of spouses, and the integrity of trust between partners, is a critical component.
Such a great discussion. Growing up, I had more boy friends. I always thought I was just “one of the guys” until we started producing hormones. And drinking. Many of the boy friends became boys I had feelings for, boys that had feelings for me, or friends with benefits. A few became actual boyfriends. These days, I talk more to my boy friends’ wives than the friends themselves, or if I’m not super friendly with the wives, my interaction with the boys tend to be limited (read: commenting on Facebook pics). In my situation, I worry less about my husband getting jealous and more about my friends’ wives getting the wrong impression. And if I’m to be completely honest, some boys I avoid all together because I fear Freudian slips, and why play with fire?
I think once rings are placed on fingers, we become more conscious of boundaries that were invisible to us previously. That said, though, one of my best friends to this day is a boy. I talk to him all the time. But that’s largely in part because his wife is awesome and respects our friendship. Had he married someone else, I’m sad to say that the dynamic might have changed.
Cheryl – Thanks for visiting my neck of the bloggy woods and for leaving this thoughtful comment! I do think these opposite sex friendships become far more complicated once hormones and booze enter the mix. For sure. I also agree that once vows are exchanged, there is a tacit – if not overt- agreement to minimize these relationships, or at least to minimize their priority. I say tacit because I never explicitly told Husband to stop being friends with his girl pals, but it just kind of organically happened. So interesting the thread I am noticing through this tapestry of comments – that we are often more worried about how we appear to other women than we do to our own partners… I sense another post in the making! Thank you
I was just talking about this topic with Husband last night! Great post and wonderful discussion so far.
In the past, I had lots of male friends and, I admit, some of those relationships were eventually complicated by sexual tension – not always mutual, but that didn’t matter. Once the sexual element was introduced, the friendship was usually compromised.
That being said, I have had strong, platonic relationships with men in which the sexual element just wasn’t there. Most of these have come since I’ve been in a committed relationship with Husband, and most derived from the workplace.
I moved right before Big Boy was born and, now that I do not work outside of the home, I don’t have any environment in which to meet and maintain male friends. Husband, meanwhile, does have friendships with a few female colleagues and that seems natural and organic to me.
As has always been the case, my friends are the people with whom I share some connection and there just aren’t any men – other than Husband – with whom I feel that right now.
And here ends my essay-length comment.
Hello all! I came across this discussion via Nic’s twitter and thought I would chime in.
My husband and I both have acquaintances of the opposite sex. But to be honest I haven’t had a male “friend” since I got married. For me the reason is very simple. Jenn hit on it her response to Maureen. Women are suspicious of other women being friends with men.
I was actually becoming very good friends with a man in my office and one of the other women in my office cornered us both and told us that she thought we had an inappropriate friendship. Despite the fact that we both new she was wrong, and that my marriage and his serious relationship were in no way threatened by our friendship, that comment has made our friendship some what awkward. I think that what it did was make us each think “Does he/she like me that way? I hope not, because I don’t reciprocate.” So it ends up that to avoid that sort of awkwardness of suspicion I just avoid developing a good friendship with men. I think it is unfortunate, but that’s the way it is. At least for me.
Welcome to ILI, Heather! I am indebted to our friend Nic for sending you my way. This question of relationships in the workplace is its own can of worms and really interesting to me. I practiced law at a big NYC firm for a relatively short time, but while I was there I glimpsed many budding relationships, platonic and non, and the ubiquity of these relationships made perfect sense to me. When one spends a good chunk of time somewhere (or an inhuman chunk of time somewhere), it seems logical and healthy, to forge relationships. But seeing this happen also made me nervous because I knew there were so many families and people in the world who could be hurt.
Your comment – and some others – highlights for me how important appearances and fear of judgment are in our decision-making. It is both understandable and unfortunate that many of our choices are in some sense dictated by others.
I lean more toward Nic’s opinion. I’m not sure I believe that *every* relationship between members of the opposite sex will inevitably be ruined by sexual tension, a la Harry and Sally. And when both are single, I think that it’s more or less okay. It’s not necessarily a bad thing if actual attraction enters the picture. I do think it happens often enough that, out of respect for our SO and to protect the relationship we have with him/her, we should avoid the potential for a deeper relationship to develop or even for gossip that such a relationship is developing.
I have guy friends, but they are friends of my husband and I as a unit or are simply men with whom I interact frequently and have an amicable relationship (coworkers, for the most part, most of whom are half a generation older than I, and half of which are gay). Likewise, my husband is friends with several women, but, again, usually either coworkers he doesn’t socialize with outside of work or friends of the two of us as a couple.
In my single days, most of my male friends were part of a group of friends, where everyone was friends with everyone else. Most of my one-on-one friendships with guys ended in high school (perhaps going to a university with gender-separated housing encouraged that–more interaction with other girls than with guys = closer relationships with girls than guys–my best girlfriends are my college roommates).
LOVE the “when harry met sally” reference!!!
Glad to be of service. I’m a little surprised I’m the first to mention it!
I tend to have ‘boy’ friends, because I’m in some professions with primarily men (Search and Rescue and ski patrol). It’s different than with girlfriend though…something more reserved about it, as if we don’t know if we’re really ‘allowed’ to be friends at our age and marital status. Which is too bad.
For best resorts you’ll need your boy friend to be either gay or living in another city you’ll never visit in a committed relationship.
I meant best results.
Welcome, Phil! I left in the “resorts” bit above because it made me chuckle. (Alas, a dork. Guilty has charged.) I must admit that I have for a long time craved a gay best friend. I imagine a straight pen pal would be nice too!
In all seriousness though (because I am very serious. Ha.), it does trouble me that it is considered impossible – or impractical – to nurture relationships with members of the opposite sex whom we actually see from time to time. Aren’t we big kids now? Aren’t we able to behave ourselves? Is this a pipe dream?
I agree with most people that its very tricky and highly unlikely that men and women can truly be platonic friends. Friends in the workplace – sure but usually works best if both people have a significant other (double dates, people being friends with both people in the relationship)
As a “younger” professional (23), I used to have a lot more guy friends in high school and college – probably the affirmations and ego boost and that “girls didnt like me” as much. As I’ve gotten older (oh i know), I find that I have less guy friends and gravitate towards friendships with girls. Maybe this is because I am in a serious relationship who I respect the guy a lot and feel that putting him in that sort of insecure position is’nt worth it?
Very rich discussion so far.
My perspective is this: I don’t have male friends who aren’t also friends with my husband. And he doesn’t have female friends who aren’t also friends with me. They aren’t all “couple” friends – many are single. For us, there’s just something that doesn’t feel right about a co-ed relationship that exists at the exclusion of the spouse. This doesn’t mean that all interactions include both of us – we interact individually with friends of the opposite sex – it just means that the person is friends with both of us.
I suppose, subconsciously, there’s something about this arrangement that puts our minds at ease. Knowing that the friend has both of our interests at heart somehow mitigates any threat of romantic boundary crossing. Not to mention the fact that we trust each other completely.
Gale, you totally pegged exactly what I wanted to say and didn’t know how! Thank you!
Anytime!
I used to have friendships with both boys and girls equally. I enjoyed that I could be less traditionally girly with my guy friends without them thinking anything except that I’m cool to chill with. My best friend in college was a German international student and we were like peas and carrots.
For me, my husband killed my boy friendships. He is insanely insecure about his wife hangin’ with the menfolk. I think this stems from two things: 1) the guttersluts he dated and married before I shined my glory on his life and 2) a working class upbringing.
I’ve noticed that working class men do not address women directly without being forced to. They talk to women through the men that are attached to them. I think my working-class man is conditioned to believe that it is disrespectful for a man to address a woman (when she has an attached male). To this day, I have to tell them, “I’m standing right here. Just ask me.”
That’s my $0.2. Marital harmony is worth more than male friendships (outside of my girlfriends’ husbands. I am friends with many of those). And if you’re lucky enough to be married to a mountain man, you understand my reasoning.
Very interesting $0.2 indeed. Now you have me wondering how much of this hinges on the temperament of our partners and socioeconomic pedigree? I have often wondered where jealousy comes from, whether it is picked up as we grow and evolve and live in the world, or whether it’s just oddly innate and waiting to manifest? Why are some people so prone to jealousy and some so seemingly impervious to it? I don’t pretend to know, but these are interesting questions. And further blog fodder. (Fun that you are married to a mountain man!)
For me it is a matter of inner circle versus acquaintances. As I get older (and busier) I find that I spend less time with casual friends – way less time. My phone calls and skype dates and drinks at the bar are filled with my very close friends (the few I manage to hang on to!). And I think that it is quite a bit rarer to have a guy friend who is in that inner circle, someone you count as a best friend. So my theory is that as we lose time for our more casual friends, we lose our guy friends, because they tend to be a bit more casual. However, I am lucky that my best friend from graduate school is a guy. And we are still very good friends. So I get some male perspective (outside of husband) in my life. I also have a brother – so I get it there too.
I agree with you, there will always be sexual tension. Even if your best male friend is gay. I have a lot of male best friends from my childhood who I still see for happy hours and dinners. They’re in a relationship, I’m in a relationship. We call them married dates. There is harmless flirting and I wouldn’t act any different with them if my Husband were present. There were crushes when we were younger, but now it’s just friendship.
I think it’s great to have friends on both sides of the spectrum. Different opinions, different views. Sometimes they help me see things from a male point of view. Help me to better understand my Husband.
Girlfriends are awesome, and you shouldn’t feel like you have to have one or the other. It’s different for everyone!
Oh this is definitely an interesting discussion. I have several boy friends and I will not argue that sexual tension sometimes arises in these relationships and it is often the boy expressing interest in me. However, with those gentlemen whose friendship I truly value, I make it very clear where I stand and that, if he does want to pursue that path, it’s best for us not to be friends. I am also single, so I don’t feel uncomfortable or as if I am breaking the trust of my significant other by doing so.
I will say that, when I find someone with whom I want to be in a romantic relationship with, if my boy friends do not want to be friends with my SO, or display any type of jealous behavior towards me or my SO, that is the end of that friendship. Without a doubt.
I think part of the problem with men and women being platonic friends is that humans are just not wired that way. We are wired for procreation and overtime the cavemen/women in us will come through. It is, to me, science. While I will not argue that most of us do not have any nefarious intentions when we enter into a friendship with someone of the opposite sex, science makes it inevitable for one of us to head down the need to procreate path. I also think that’s why couples can make it as friends – the couples see each other in (hopefully) healthy and strong relationships, which, in a sense, turns off the science part because you are already in the position to procreate if you want to!
I sound so scientific and cold, don’t I?!?!? HAHA
Ah, biology. How much of this – of all the things we do – is rooted in biology? If daddy Darwin were alive and kicking, what would he have to say in this conversation? I’ve read everywhere that monogamy isn’t “natural,” so maybe we need to go to unnatural lengths to protect it since its not ultimately instinctive? I have no idea, but thank you for shedding light on the biological angle of this question!
” I’ve read everywhere that monogamy isn’t “natural,” so maybe we need to go to unnatural lengths to protect it since its not ultimately instinctive?”
I think this is true, to some extent. I believe that monogamy isn’t natural in the sense that, ages ago, in the beginning of man, the idea was to continue the existence of the human race –> being wired for procreation. Clearly, over time, it was much easier to sustain the human race without it being socially acceptable for every caveman to knock up every cavewoman he shared a drink with by the stream. So, while I don’t believe that there is necessarily one person for each of us and I also do not believe that it should be frowned upon to separate from your initial SO and move on to another SO, IF DONE PROPERLY AND RESPECTFULLY, etc. (i.e., no cheating, no slinking around, no lying). I’m not saying I want that to be my life, I’m just saying I don’t judge people who fall out of love, or whatever, and decide it’s best to separate and move on.
All of that said, in no way, shape or form do I condone cheating, nor do I think that any person who strays while still in a marraige or committed relationship gets to take the “Biology” pass and be excused. Heck no. We also, as humans have this thing called will power and we should be expected as adults, to use it. If we can’t, we should be expected to accept the consequences and be shunned (to some extent) by society.
I used to have many more guy friends than girl friends. I just couldn’t stand the cattiness (is that spelled right? Looks totally wrong…?), the bitchiness, the competitiveness I found so often with girls. And guys were just laid back and EASY. I also had a lot in common with many guys I was friends with. I loved to be outside, hiking, skiing, playing frisbee, whatever. And I think that has so much to do with it – who you have the most in common with – when it comes to friendships. NOW, I have no male friends because I have so much more in common with women. With moms. With women in the workplace. Most men really can’t relate to my world right now other than through what they hear from their wives. So my time is better spent with my female friends.
I still feel the same about the competitiveness among women though and I definitely miss the ease of the male friends I once had but it’s just not what feels “right” right now.
As far as the sexual chemistry… I’m sure I would have dated many of the men I was once friends with because we had so much in common and loved spending time with one another but I don’t think it was the reason for our friendship or the reason why we’re not friends now.
GREAT post Aidan!
So my bestest friend in the whole world is someone I spent nearly 2 years having relations with. We were kids, it felt ok, we were best friends before and best friends after. I mention this because I never felt like sexual tension was a barrier to the friendship. Most of my friends have historically been male, and of those, at least 75% have evinced a bit of tension, from both sides. I guess it always seemed like par for the course for me.
Considering I believe we fantasize about all the people we see on the street and don’t know, I just figured it was normal to have a passing fantasy about someone I already liked as a human being.
And yes, that’s getting more difficult as I get older. Mostly because of how women perceive boy/girl friendships. When we were all single, or more accurately, when they were single and I wasn’t, who cared who spent time with whom? Now there are stakeholders who care. I would be lying if I said that my devoted partner was overjoyed on the evenings I stumble home at 3am following a long dinner with best friend, but it’s nothing compared with the friends (not best friend) who need to call or text every half an hour to assure their wives/girlfriends that we’re not making it.
I guess I never bought into the idea that we are powerless over our urges. Thinking about sleeping with someone not your monogamous partner is healthy and normal; acting on those thoughts is the problem. When you sign up to be monogamous, you’re pledging fidelity which takes work. The idea that enough time spent with someone of the opposite sex would take the choice out of it seems disingenuous to me. Just as I choose to be monogamous, I choose to not follow through on sexual thoughts I might or might not have about a “boy who is my friend.”
And, for me, I would be immensely uncomfortable in any monogamous relationship where I or my partner was unable to handle the other having opposite sex friends. Monogamy without trust doesn’t really seem worth it, like it’s all of the hassles with none of the rewards. Frankly, I wish my partner had more female friends, I think the diversity of opinion is well worth the, “I wonder if he thinks about doing them” thoughts. So, Aidan, if you want a buddy, I freely offer him up.
I am immensely interested in this question of powerlessness. Maybe we cannot control our thoughts and urges, but it does seem that we can – and should – control our actions. Are some of us better able to do this than others? Is the cultural message to avoid these friendships – if it exists – a means to protect us from our urges, a manifestation of “better safe than sorry”?
Love that you are offering up your guy
Resoundingly well said! I firmly believe in the power of choice. Yes, chemistry exists. Definitely. And so does the choice to work around it for the sake of maintaining a healthy friendship.
I freely admit there are friends I have cut off contact with when the relationship was no longer good for me, or me for it. Male and female alike, and chemistry was only one of the myriad of reasons.
Choices, people. Free will exercised in development of the powers of thought leads to logical conclusions. If you respect yourself, value the inherent worth of yourself and others, excellent friendships can and do, grow, live and thrive between the genders.
There is definitely something more complicated underneath all this, but I guess we (wife and I) are similar to you too. Facebook friends with others at most. But we try to cultivate other-sex friendships by having people over a lot, but that is about as far as it goes!
I’ll be your friend, Aidan. I am happily married to the most beautiful, smartest woman in the entire world.
I’ve always had more female friends than male friends. All platonic (since marrying), although my BEST friend besides my wife is generally (but not always) male.
Oh. And, I live in a city you will never, ever, visit.
Aw, I’m in the same boat. Ever since getting married my boy friends have disappeared. Granted, I left most of them back in Los Angeles when I moved here to be with husband, but gosh I miss them.
Why does this happen? Why haven’t I made one guy friend since getting married?
I count my friends on my fingers and one thumb. So, let me see… five women, four men. Not a bad balance, really.
I have a number of acquaintances, people I interract with, share experiences, journeys and expeditions with: largely, they are men. The few women I know who go to the places I do are wonderful, exceptional people and we also get along famously.
As with anything, it boils down to motive. My best friend and life partner is also my husband. My dearest girl-friend is a kindred spirit of body and soul, and our relationship knows no gender barrier. In fact, now that I think about it, the people I hold close to my heart are not defined at all by their gender. They could be either male or female and it would not matter to me; they are solid platinum with wings of titanium.
When I was single between my two marriages I had a ton of guy friends but that was because we had somehow gotten the sex attraction out of the way. Either they were ex-boyfriends and had started calling again several months post-breakup so there was a fun, flirty friendship, or we just hadn’t been attracted in the first place and found out, either by trying to date or something, and got over the awkwardness and had genuine friendships.
When I met my husband, though, he had this one request: he preferred that at our wedding he’d be the only man who’d slept with me. So that was that. Not that I’m such a big tramp
but still.
I have a boy friend. He’s gay. I have another boy friend who I’ve known since high school, and he’s now married, so we don’t see each other outside of a double-date with our spouses. That’s it. I do think that once you’re married, you acquire more “couple friends” outside of work rather than opposite-sex friends. I did acquire a boy friend last year when I was working, and he was the one person at my new school who I felt I connected with. But my husband got pretty upset when I kept mentioning him. And I think this is why we don’t have boyfriends–there’s too much of that sexual tension you mentioned. I notice that even with neighbors, the guys hang with the guys, and the girls hang with the girls. I often want to be part of the guy talk, but there seems to be an unspoken rule….
Interesting questions. I’ve had periods of time with both men friends and women friends. One of my oldest friends is a guy. Doesn’t matter that he’s married and I’m not. He’s the one friend who really stood by me during and after divorce, because he’d been there. And our friendship has never been an issue for his wife. No reason for it to be. Men and women bring varying perspectives and energies, and they’re both to be enjoyed.
I agree with Nic, in his first comment. Men and women cannot be “friends” as two men or two women can be. The sexual thing will rear up (as I think it is meant to) and mess it up. Not by our design, but by His.
Trece
Welcome to ILI, Trece! I am very curious about the question of whether our ability or inability to maintain platonic intergender relationships is ultimately biological, or divined in some way as you suggest. Do you think this is perhaps a way to rationalize our often bad behavior, to duck responsibilities for our own actions? In the end, I think it is possible that the urges that may or may not arise have biological roots, but isn’t it up to us not to follow through on them if they do manifest?
Btw, speaking of gender, Nic is a “she”
LOL!!!!
I’ve typically had more guy friends than girl friends. I prefer less drama and I like to watch ESPN–guys are perfect for that kind of lifestyle. But after getting married, I did reduce the amount of opp-sex friendships. Some I got rid of because there were more than “just friends” feelings and I think that can be a dangerous and slippery slope. And some because the other drifted away because maybe they felt awkward. Thankfully I don’t have a jealous husband and I’m not a jealous wife, though my husband does have a lot of female friends. However we trust each other. And ultimately, that’s what the marriage should be based upon, right?
My oldest friend is a man. We met when I was 3 weeks old and he is in many ways the brother I never had. There has not ever been an issue with sexual tension or complexity with us. I do have a couple of male friends, still, people from before I knew my husband or before I was married. They are not friends I speak to daily or see frequently but they matter to me and I do keep in email touch with them. I think this can be a tricky situation for sure, though, and you ask thought-provoking questions.
I have two close boy friends. They are not the husbands of my girl friends. They are not friends of my husband who I have adopted as my own. They are my friends. Two of my closest, in fact. But the relationships have changed since I got married, and have changed even more since I had a baby. One of the friends is single. He and I have always had a completely and utterly platonic relationship. We have traveled to other countries together, slept in the same bed, probably even shared a toothbrush, and I can honestly say that neither of us has ever felt LIKE THAT for the other. My relationship with this friend has changed because it’s hard for us to relate to each other now. The stuff I care about isn’t the stuff he cares about. My relationship with the other friend is more complicated. This relationship wasn’t always platonic. We talk all the time and are, in a lot of ways, each other’s go-to person when we need an outside perspective. But we don’t hang out any more. It was never anything official, but I think we both decided without deciding that the physical element of our relationship – the being in each other’s presence – was something we might need to sacrifice if we wanted to keep the friendship. Hanging out together, alone, and being as close as we are… I think it just felt like an unnecessary risk to both of us. So, I guess I’m saying that I do think men and women can have platonic relationships (I know from first hand experience), but I also think that male/female friendships can be risky. It’s up to us to decide which kind of friendship we’re dealing with.
I have several male friends, my closest of which is the husband of one of my very good friends. I am friends with both of them as a couple and individually. I go to lunch with her husband alone, I go to lunch with her alone, my husband and I see them together. I love having a guy to bounce things off, and the unique perspective I get. While I understand the points made about sexual tension, I don’t think it is an impediment to intergender friendship. In this particular friendship, there is no romantic or sexual tension that I am aware of and if it somehow it appeared, it wouldn’t change things. This is because I would never cheat on my husband and my friend would never cheat on his wife. And yes, I know that it is an old story that people run off with the best friend but we are not people generally, we are individuals who make choices about how we value our lives and those we love. I believe if the man and the woman in the friendship are ethical people, there is no reason they can’t be friends.
D – Totally unrelated to the topic at hand, I just wanted to say that it’s great to see that you’ve surfaced from your never-ending, swallowed-you-up case. And it’s great to have you back in the conversation. Hope you’re enjoying having some breathing room back in your life!
Thanks Gale! It’s good to be back. I missed this place — Aidan’s musings and all my smart fellow commenters like you. It looks like there are a lot more people talking, what a wonderful forum we found (thanks Aidan!)
This makes me feel better…and worse at the same time. Better because I’m clearly not the only one in this sinking ship. Worse because I’m only 24 and without the true best boy friend (husband)…so I’m doomed?
I had a few guy friends in high school who filled me in on “what guys really mean when they say XYZ,” but now, when I could really use the guy friend’s advice, not a boy friend in sight. (Gay ones don’t count in this situation).
Single girl friends are hard to come by in my neck of the woods, and by default their husbands become my friends. Now my friends from college are married and having babies (one, two, some three…at age 23…),I definitely wouldn’t mind making some new friends (keeping the old, of course). I’m sick of hearing about my female friend’s husbands, dinner recipes, house shopping, wedding planning, and Babies-R-Us lists. I’d appreciate a guy friend one who wants to talk hockey, baseball, and fishing.
Good luck on your quest. Tell your daughter’s to keep girls close and boys closer (figuratively speaking) because girls end up getting much more back-stabbing and caddy while guys just yell at each other, punch a wall, and go back to playing video games like nothing happened!!
Welcome to ILI, Megan! Thank you for chiming in, particularly because you offer a unique and important perspective. Maybe you are just like me in that you don’t naturally develop boy friend relationships? Or maybe it is the surrounding culture of marrieds and parents (of which you are part) that dictates what types of relationships form? I do not know. For your sake, I hope you find yourself that fun and dependable boy friend to kick back with when all your friends are chit-chatting about recipes and babies
I think that as we get older the divide just gets greater. As kids, adolescents, even young adults, it’s easier to relate on different kinds of levels. As adults, particularly adults with families, lifelong partners, busy lives, the divide just seems wider. Men do it differently than women. We’re consumed by different motivations, perhaps that’s why it all changes. At least that’s been my experience. I can’t relate to men like a do women and for now I need women to help me cope. I have a hunch though, that as we grow older and our children move on that once again, the divide will narrow and we’ll find ways to connect again with the opposite sex (outside of our own partners of course). I could be completely wrong though, I suppose that’s why there are countless books on the subject
I think (at least nearly always the case in my experience, anyway) that male-female friendships are never truly platonic on both ends. Even if they were platonic for me, I knew that my male friends would have been interested in more if it had been possible; alternatively I had male friends along the way as a kind of back-burner option (terrible maybe but these were my single days!) Now that I am married, I have no need for back burner guys and I don’t need guy friends for movie night type evenings when all my girl friends have real dates and I have nothing to do! I think it is too risky to have opposite sex friends once you are married. I would not be thrilled at all if my husband chose to spend his free time with another woman, even if I honestly 100% believed he had no romantic feelings towards her at all. It just wouldn’t seem right to me! Sad maybe but that is life. That said, I had plenty of male work friends and they were just platonic, honestly, but we were really just colleages who got along. Very different than a friend you go out of your way to see during spare time in a social setting!
I pull my head out of…wherever it’s been…and look what I find! Interesting.
I used to have boys for friends and then, I do believe, I grew up. And I realized that boys don’t do “friend” the way girls do. Men, too often, see sex in there somewhere, and it screws it all up. I think. Hard to be sure. Is it that, or is it that husbands or lovers are a bit uncomfortable with other men around us?
What an interesting thing to ponder, Aidan. But hooray for Toddler, in the meantime.
I worked in a male-dominated profession where, at one point, I was one of two women doing the job in the entire country. It involved a ton of travel – all with men – to go do my job with, you guessed it, men.
On one of our first dates, my now-husband met me at a restaurant, where I was the only woman seated at a table of about 20.
He knows I had guy friends before we met. The ones I still am in contact with have become his friends, too. I’m lucky in that in my line of work, there are many brilliant, creative and hilariously snarky people. And my husband thinks they’re pretty cool, too.
It IS possible to have platonic male friends. Good people come in all shapes, sizes – and genders. I have a close guy friend who I’ve known for 12 years, and I still value him as a sounding board for some things.
The thing is, I don’t hide any of it from my husband. If you feel you have to hide your friendship with a guy from your spouse, then either 1) you have some feelings you need to figure out or 2) your husband is jealous/insecure.
I’ll stop rambling. Great topic, Aidan. And some really interesting comments!
“Good people come in all shapes, sizes – and genders.”
Exactly. I think this is why I am so troubled by the fact that these intergender relationships appear to fall of as we get older. Ultimately, what matters is that we encounter, and spend time with, good people and it just seems so arbitrary (and sad) to limit ourselves to members of our own sex. I think that honesty – with ourselves, with our partners – is an absolute essential. Where would we be without honesty? Is there such thing as too much honesty? (ooh another blog topic. yay!)
I realize I am joining this debate pretty late in the game (blame it on a long work day and a time difference), but I feel compelled to stick up for men. And for women. And for the idea that they can be truly, wonderful, utterly platonic friends. I admit, it took me a while to get the idea of a male/female friendship just right. Sure, in high school, boy friends and I got our wires crossed a few times about who was interested in what, and some feelings got hurt. I also faced the wrath of the yearbook editors, who listed my pet peeve as “jealous girlfriends,” and quoted me as saying “he’s just a friend.” I don’t think either was a compliment, and neither did my father.
Despite the high school hiccups and the harsh judgments from some, I generally had just as many boy friends as girl friends as a teenager. I am not sure the ratio has stayed exactly equal throughout my adult life, but even now, 30+ and married, I still count several men as among my closest friends. Some are in relationships and some are not. Some are straight and some are not. It doesn’t seem to make a difference to our friendships. I spent an hour on the phone last Sunday catching up with a boy friend from law school, which is more time than I spent on the phone with girl friends all week. It wasn’t sexual or flirty or complicated. It was just two close friends talking about our jobs, our families, the need for health care reform, and the absolutely crazy life of another (boy) friend from law school.
All of this makes me feel a little like a freak, but a proud freak because I treasure these friendships. I think they make me, and my marriage, better and richer. I feel lucky that not since high school has anyone, including my number one man, done anything to try to derail these friendships, and it never occurred to me that they would. After reading these posts, I feel like I have a rare gift: the ability to sustain multiple male/female friendships without wrecking marriages or creating chaos.
During the 6 years that I dated my now-husband, and the year and a half that we have been married, he has never made a peep about my male friendships. I would have been surprised and hurt if he did. He has several close female friends, and it doesn’t phase me in the least when they spend hours and hours together. To me, I don’t register them as anything but friends, and it’s a little hard for me to understand why anyone would. I am in no way passing judgment on other people’s relationships. Certainly, nobody should do anything that knowingly makes his or her partner uncomfortable, unless that thing is really important. And if the thing is really important to one of the partners, like a close friendship, the couple needs to talk about it and make compromises. That gets to the root, I think, of what bothers me a little about the tone of this intriguing dialogue. I hate the idea of limiting my friends based on gender, just like I wouldn’t limit my friends based on race or religion. Throughout my life, my boy friends have provided me with unique perspectives, hysterical laughs, incredible loyalty, fantastic dirty jokes, great inspiration, and unyielding support and encouragement. I can’t imagine where I would be without them. I guess, at the end of the day, I don’t see what all the fuss is about. Here’s my final pitch – I am living proof that it is not impossible or impractical to have a boy friend (or maybe five). And who wouldn’t love another friend?
Oh my. Boys as friends are wonderful. One of my BFF’s is a guy. I adore him. He walked me down the aisle when I got married.
Your post reminds me of the film, When Harry Met Sally. Billy Cyrstal’s character was convinced a guy couldn’t be just friends with a girl.
He ended up wrong and then right.
All I know is that I love my guy friends!
I am popping in late, as seems to be the norm recently. I read your post yesterday but was in a hurry and didn’t get to commenting. Now, it was hard to not read all the discussion to date but I can’t. I have to get moving again today.
I have what I would guess is an equal number of truly close friends that are male and female. This is a new point in my life. I was always the only girl hanging out with boys in high school, college, even after I got married. It took a divorce for me to find female friends.
I am torn on what Nic said about sexual tension. I have had relationships with men that have had that on one side or another and not progressed that way. I have also had ones that the sexual tension went both ways and was acted upon. Those did not end so well for the most part. So, I am torn.
Now off to try and comment on today’s post before I get wrapped up in life.
Yet another interesting question! I will be mulling over this for a while… In my college years, I did have more guy friends than girl friends: we were best buddies. We hung out and drank a lot. I was treated as an honorary male person. LOL. Then I came to the US. That’s the end of that. Living in the suburbs, having kids, working out of a branch office with all male, married, co-workers, all rendered the pool of my “friends” in real life very very very small. I also have a very strict definition for what constitutes as a friend vs. co-worker, acquaintance, neighbor, so&so’s mom, etc. which does not help. I am depressed now…
At school, I used to have more girl-friends than boy-friends. Why? Girls were allowed to come for sleepovers!
At college, I had more boy-friends than girl-friends. Why? I was studying maths and physics, and there weren’t that many girls.
At university, I had a fairly even split.
And now? Still pretty even. A lot of my male friends, I met through my husband, but I will happily call them for coffee. Where they have wives and girlfriends, I make an effort to befriend them too, and try to make sure they know I’m not a threat (I’ve been on the wrong side of jealousy before).
You might be interested in this (short) post, which I wrote last autumn:
http://blog.rachelcotterill.com/2009/09/boys-girls.html
I grew up with 10k sisters and have always had a ton of female friends. It was understood by all of my girlfriends and wife that I wasn’t giving them up.
You trust me or you don’t. The fact that sexual tension might show up isn’t proof that it will or that you will act upon it.
We get different things from different people and I value my female friends. They have been trusted companions. I have traveled with some of them, slept in the same bed and never had any sexual encounters.
There are one or two exceptions, but it has never been a problem and never been a secret. That makes a difference.
Of all the blogs I read, yours is one of the worst to get behind on because I want to comment on every single thing you say.
Husband and I both have a friend of the opposite sex that we are incredibly close to. They were both in our weddings – mine an usher and his a female groom – and we vacation with them and their respective spouses/partners as often as we can.
Wow! What an interesting discussion this post has opened up! I believe in friendship being possible between men and women. I believe in it because some of my best go to friends are male.
Of course, I would always choose marital harmony over these friendships and if my husband ever expressed any doubt I would make changes. But I have never given him any reason not to trust me and in fact at least one of my male friends has become his best ally. Quick to point out when my behaviour is irrational and often siding with my husband in little quibbles.
And sure, there may be some sexual tension. Surely, that is natural considering the attraction that exists in the way I feel about my boy friends to begin with. The thing is, the ability to never cross the line exists in our brains.
I am respectful of people who don’t believe they can have friendships with the opposite sex for this reason. I am frustrated by the number of people who feel it necessary to judge those of us who do, especially those who make comments to my husband like, “you let her spend time with another man? you let her travel with a guy? you let…” Seriously people? Because I am able to control carnal urges and accept friendship in its simplest form? Because my husband trusts me to be able to behave appropriately and respectfully to him and our relationship? Which brings to a whole other post…the word “LET” as if I am a child and not my husband’s partner.
Opps, this went on a lot longer than I intended. Your ability to open up a discussion is nothing short of amazing, Aidan! Thanks.
good questions! I have a bunch of guy friends, but they are my husbands friends first..I could call them and even hang out w/ them with out him…but the truth is if we split they would never talk to me again..so therefore can I really call them friends?
Back in teh day I loved male friends. much less drama then women. But I am a true believer that men and women can’t be true friends…one always wants to have more than the friendship…sad but true! There is always that “sex” factor!
I have a bunch of guy friends. I’ve always gotten along with guys better than with girls (even though I am not lacking in the girlfriend department).
I do believe that there can be a friendship between boys and girls. Even at age 31